Session Start: Mon Mar 05 08:15:52 2012 Session Ident: #mt-confidential [08:15] * Now talking in #mt-confidential [08:15] * Topic is 'In Memory: Momo Gallagher (1997-2011) He was a good kitty and will be missed' [08:15] * Set by RayKremer!~raykremer@74.0.139.160 on Mon Oct 03 15:37:16 [08:15] * ChanServ sets mode: +o RayKremer [08:23] * Invisigoth has joined #mt-confidential [08:24] * Invisigoth has quit IRC (Changing host) [08:24] * Invisigoth has joined #mt-confidential [08:24] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Invisigoth [08:53] * piroko[factory] has joined #mt-confidential [09:02] * Invisigoth waves [09:03] I was amused at the carrying on in #fredrin about prox!mity [09:03] :D [09:11] hehe [09:11] i dont mind a little bit of pre exposure [09:11] to see what people think [09:12] the first thing everyone jumps to is the extreme hacking and stuff [09:12] where you get all sorts of weird stuff in the VR [09:12] but thats exactly what im working to avoid [09:12] and i think i can do that. i think the angles im looking at make sense [09:12] you're doing the social aspect of the tech working as intended, rather than people fucking with it [09:13] basically, i want it to become the kinda thing that has redunancy similar to what you find in just light waves and stuff [09:13] yep [09:13] you can hack light and stuff, but for the most part its just straight up line of sight [09:13] if that makes sense [09:13] thats why i am pushing this as a passive system [09:19] you can hack your avatar and that'd be about it [09:20] I'm looking at this from a 'game' hacking perspective [09:20] think about this [09:20] in a game the hacks are intended to give an edge to the avatar in game [09:20] but you're in real time here [09:21] Plus it's purely a visual, informational thing [09:21] and everybody's perfectly aware that a lot of what they are seeing isn't physically present [09:21] * Invisigoth postulates a fileless OS [09:22] you may get it to lie about where you really are physically [09:22] in all honesty the GItS paradigm is dead and buried with a system like that [09:23] you're not chopping up the meat to put the machine inside [09:23] i want it to be streaming based - not something you really CAN record, or really inject things into [09:23] that's not elegant [09:23] yep [09:23] depending on how good the overlay is I suppose you could get someone to walk into a wall or fall into a hole or something [09:23] its like forcing copyright through brute force DRM [09:23] a natural way to make it work will happen [09:23] RayKremer: you CAN do stuff, but usually its noticeable [09:23] * RayKremer nods [09:24] the gaming possibilities would be pretty cool though [09:24] today hacking is possible because all hackers really do is trip up existing systems [09:24] they dont completely replace things [09:24] they do little pokes [09:24] to tweak this system you gotta put a hella lot of effort into it, and its kinda hard to miss [09:25] I think I'd brought that up the other day, the idea that you'd say. purchase a bit of jewelry that would allow access to music files [09:25] get a proper empty room or empty field to do stuff in and you could run a bunch of cool stuff, holodeck almost, even, except of course no touching [09:26] yep [09:26] most shows that have a not-holodeck holodeck use the type of VR where you sit in a chair and don't move but think you are, which tech-wise is way out there [09:26] you can do a certain amount of personal hacks - like Cable's ears [09:26] which really is not too different from wearing a crazy hat [09:26] yep [09:27] thin of your DS - you look at a special card with it, and a Miku comes out of it and dances [09:27] That's classic AR stuff right there [09:27] and also, could have some seriously aggressive netsec as well [09:27] not many of them [09:27] there was a game in jp not that long ago, use your webcam and an AR symbol and you played with a little maid girl or something [09:27] with a penalty of being off the grid permanently [09:28] or worse [09:28] The idea of AR costume type stuff is pretty cool actually [09:28] yep [09:29] also, Love Plus has that thing where you travel to some vacation spot and meet up with your girl [09:29] when i told sarah about that, the look she gave me was funny :P [09:29] Wear a shirt with a certain code symbol on it and you can have wings or anything [09:29] oh lordy, love plus [09:29] * Invisigoth has been reading some stuff by Jaron Lanier [09:30] who addresses some of that [09:30] Although the AR stuff with Nintendogs is odd, you actually can interface with the dog LESS on the AR card than you can on the screen normally, with the stylus [09:30] yeah. i dont want to INVENT stuff here - not really [09:31] actuall I have that in an ebook [09:31] I can lend it if you'd like [09:31] lot of good ideas you can use [09:31] There's a minigame that only works with the AR card though, so they force you into it that way, plus the thing I showed you where the nintendo character AR cards put costume hats on the dog [09:31] what i want to do is apply feasable stuff into a future - the point of it to be to have a setup that i can have characters exist in [09:31] * Invisigoth goes to check his library [09:31] duh, which email should I send that too Fred? [09:32] fredrin at gmail [09:37] hmm [09:37] apparently I can't loan that book [09:37] fred: http://www.barcodekanojo.com/ [09:38] "your are not a gadget" [09:40] http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002ZFXUBO/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title [09:41] "that unfettered--and anonymous--ability to comment results in cynical mob behavior, the shouting-down of reasoned argument, and the devaluation of individual accomplishment." [09:41] Well that's certainly true, at least as often as not [09:42] he points out that the ability to monoplolize distribution of media is a fairly recent thing historically so the obvious solution it to go streaming [09:42] which is what Fred postulates [09:43] Ha. "These designs valued the information content of the web over individuals. ... Only the aggregator (like Google, for instance) gets rich, while the actual producers of content get poor." [09:43] sounds familiar? [09:46] yep :) [09:46] hu [09:46] huh [09:46] so i might actually be getting it sorta right [09:46] maybe [09:46] this guy is focusing on the negative, of course, but somebody has to [09:47] web impact on the culture has a lot of good but a lot of bad too [09:47] well since yu are working in that media you're going to see the problems [09:48] he also believe things like mashups and rescripts are corrosive to the creative process [09:48] and notes that the so called "open source" business model isn't producing any major talent [09:48] the talent is there but they aren't making a living doing it [09:48] oh, where's that think fred linked recently... http://vimeo.com/kirbyferguson/videos "everything is a remix" [09:49] * Invisigoth goes to check a reference [09:49] mashups/rescripts are unavoidable essentially, but if it's all you doing, and blatantly, it of course would tend to suck creativity down [09:49] but imagine if you'r in a band and you can do private shows on a live stream [09:50] * RayKremer still has that tab open because he's only watched pt 1 so far [09:52] * RayKremer looks at Scott's link and has the "Oh, Japan" reaction [09:52] for the sake of the people wanting to believe there's an "uberhack" [09:52] an OS that is streaming and not even necessarily binary [09:52] I can remember some gadget or other that was similar, kids can barcodes off groceries or whatever and they become monsters to fight [09:52] no real files to access [09:53] well, anything that's streaming can be recorded [09:53] your personal interface gear is geared to your own biometrics [09:53] thing about AR glasses though, recording it is irrelevant because out of context of what you are looking at the info isn't useful [09:54] hehe, your glasses/contact and tablet know you [09:54] If you look at cable and record the AR feed, when you play it back you just get floating kitty ears [09:55] there's not going to be any Linux with a kernal to rewrite [10:00] the architecture of this would be the sort of thing to send conspiratologist shrieking to their wilderness bunkers [10:00] :D [10:01] constant "on" video [10:01] everyone is a camera [10:01] !!! [10:01] and everyone is using it transparently [10:01] with no more concern that a fish has about water or a bird does with air [10:02] in this world I can see farmers controlling robotic implements by telepresence [10:03] same with trucks and trains [10:03] aircraft as well [10:05] that's true, everyone is a camera. The potential abuse is vast but would require resources even more vast to pull off [10:06] actually doing something with all that video beyond the real-time AR overlays would be absurdly burdensome on any system [10:07] well if it's distributed then it'd be noticed [10:07] think of the gear you have as being essentially a thin client [10:08] you'd have some local storage but you really wouldn't need that much [10:10] so you go to the eye doctor and get your new contacts and after a boot up it says, "Hello Ray Kremer, let's get you calibrated" [10:11] and the system says, "Welcome Ray Kremer, your new interface and been registered for your exclusive use" [10:11] reads your retinas [10:12] the biggest gap in the 'VR' being like ACTUALLY being there [10:12] is the whole touch thing [10:13] they can emulate senses like touch, and the newer stuff is good at it [10:13] but you can't emulate the push back of something actually BEING there [10:13] but everyone gets use to that, the old glasses may not be able to reister it tjhough [10:13] yeah [10:13] that's why his friend was joking him [10:13] because he had to look :D [10:13] the whole thing to avoid, imho, is a system that its easier for people to just sit in a big chair and live [10:14] its working with visual and auditory stimulai [10:14] make them get out and move around :P [10:14] and some people, like Hyup, have that sorta 'sixth sense' [10:14] you know when you can sorta feel the space people create around themselvs [10:14] * Invisigoth nods [10:15] also, i find it really amusing [10:15] that one of Dow's excuses for why she is totally not plugged in [10:15] is that she gets motion sickness from it [10:15] :P [10:15] hehe [10:15] perhaps that's why she goes invisible too [10:16] thats actually more complicated [10:16] when she was initially calibrated it couldn't [10:16] and its something for you guys to ponder [10:16] note that i call her Dow [10:16] people's names are actually derived more from nicknames than family names in this society [10:16] and they can morph over time [10:16] Tao? [10:16] think for a moment about just HOW she can be invisible [10:17] haha motion sickness, gee I wonder how you came up with that :P [10:17] the system is blanking the pass-through vision of her [10:17] but never maps the avatar version there (which is essentially the same) [10:17] or someone unset her alpha-channel bit [10:17] RayKremer: hehehe [10:17] yep [10:18] ok, so later in the story, as you can imagine, she has to be careful [10:18] people just cant see her [10:18] so she has to get out of the way [10:18] now imagine she's upset and having a row with Hyup [10:18] he can sense her presence but that's another level [10:18] The glasses, they must be full video replacement, not just an additive light stream? [10:19] as she's walking away from him, still upset, she walks into the usually quiet street, usually fairly well managed [10:19] and the transport systems - they don't see her [10:19] I suggest the glasses use a laser holgram projector [10:19] RayKremer: yes, they can map out and replace - sorta like canceling out sound [10:19] creates the image directly into the eye [10:19] they basically take input from all the streams from all the nodes placed all over [10:19] Invisigoth: sorta a little like Snow Crash in that respect [10:20] yes [10:20] and its passive, so the glasses just react to the info being tossed at them [10:20] with only Hyup there then the background isn't going to be a full either [10:20] for him [10:20] Warren: well right, they have those and/or are working on those, laser projectors that reflect off your clear lenses into the eye [10:20] but that wouldn't be able to hide something that's there without doing a full overlay over it [10:20] now, hyup (who can be seen) sees what is about to happen and tackles her - the transport system sees HIM and slows, but they both still get hit [10:21] googlegoggles [10:21] he wakes up in the hospital, cuncussed, broken bones, etc. not doing great, but not horrible [10:21] Dow is there, looking seriously agitated [10:21] he breathes a sigh of relief, she's ok. [10:21] Tao is nothingness... [10:21] :D [10:22] she sort of looks uncomfortable [10:22] and says no, actually, she's asleep right now [10:22] and then he realizes he has his glasses on [10:22] yanks them off, Dow isnt there [10:23] see... for medical help, and life in general, you HAVE avatars [10:23] reverse of usual [10:23] she could not get medical attention [10:23] if they can't SEE her [10:23] thing is - she HAS an avatar [10:23] but for some reason, her avatar ... is usually elsewhere, is disconnected [10:23] see why she is invisible now? [10:24] heheh her avatar stayed home from school! [10:24] the system alpha channels her out, but then draws the avatar elsewhere [10:24] there's like a phase shift between them - even tho they are the same and very connected [10:24] and they can't see each other at all [10:24] Okay, trying to process the tech. The glasses reconstruct the area you are viewing and does a total replacement of people with their avatars even if they look exactly the same. So the glasses are full video replacement, no light from the world reaches your eyes, it's all from the glasses [10:24] the avatar has to come back when she gets hurt [10:25] but her avatar went to see Hyup in the hospital? [10:25] RayKremer: no - its all normal light, but the system can write in opaque video [10:25] does that make sense? [10:25] otherwise, all the people would be transparent [10:25] actually yes [10:25] kinda hard to do with current tech [10:25] now the tweaks... [10:26] one thing about Hyup [10:26] I've got this app in my iphone that tags locations [10:26] so that's the way it'd be [10:26] and this comes from personal experience, and im not afraid to explore it, in fact i want to [10:26] he has a pet cat that hangs out with him [10:26] but only in the virtual side [10:27] its the opposite of what is going on with Dow - his cat had died years before, but he worked a tweak that is possible to keep the cat around [10:27] actually, with LCD you can also add an opacity layer on some systems [10:27] can you sort of get a sense of the inverse of this? [10:27] * Invisigoth nods [10:27] he's essentially got a virtual cat [10:27] so... and here's where we start to get into the meat of some of this - even further [10:27] that's a shadow of his deceased pet [10:28] there are three female protagonists [10:28] Dow, who is in the real world but not in the virtual [10:28] Cable, who is both 'there' and in the virtual [10:28] and then there is Shioh, who is in the virtual, but being offworld, shes not likely to be 'there' physically [10:28] now... offworld is pretty dangerous [10:29] well could put her as far out as the moon [10:29] imagine if what Hyup has done with his cat, her parents have done with her... [10:29] then she'd be sort of "spacey" [10:29] she is - exactly [10:29] thats the lag [10:29] oh.... [10:29] and she will quite literally float [10:29] THAT doesnt come in till later [10:29] and i havent decided [10:29] is she actually *dead* or is she just horridly hurt and disfigured [10:29] if there's a real Shioh somewhere??? [10:30] ah [10:30] yep [10:30] i just have this though that when this comes out [10:30] and shioh runs off, in a virtual sense [10:30] that dow's avatar tracks her ass down and drags her back :P [10:30] down, that is [10:30] this is all part of the dev [10:30] but it's all pretty interesting stuff [10:30] and imagine poor cable - she's the most normal in this situation [10:30] hehe [10:31] being hyup is in for a world of it [10:31] ok, i gotta go get jack [10:31] at least all this seems to have some interesting spark to it [10:31] So Shioh is thought to be a girl transmitting to the system from the moon, but it turns out she's a construct of a girl. Transmitting from the moon. [10:31] it has generated some real discussion with you guys [10:31] thats good [10:31] RayKremer: she WAS indeed very much alive [10:31] might still be [10:31] not sure yet [10:31] right, but the girl they talk to is not her [10:32] she's in a coma or whatever if alive at all? [10:32] im still working on what i want to do with that [10:32] like i said, dev [10:32] but you get the basic structure behind it all [10:33] now, disfigured you could do if she's still ambulatory. You know Subaru in hack sign, yes? [10:33] turns out to be wheelchair bound IRL [10:33] well never able to leave the moon [10:33] but you'd never know it playing the game with her [10:33] if that's where she is [10:33] ok, gotta go [10:33] oh that's true [10:33] someone log this for me :) [10:33] in a microgravity situation you could be crippled and still get around [10:34] zero-G even better [10:35] it's logged, I've get this set to log stuff [10:35] her reality, her physical reality, is incomprehensible to the others [10:37] so two options, and both have good possibilities, one she's dead or comatose and the girl that is online is a complete AI construct her parents made to replace her, two she's really crippled and disfigured but gets around okay because she lives in zero or very low gravity on a space station, and hides her condition with her avatar [10:37] her deformity may bee that she's utterly alien, perhaps looks more like a spider, uses her feet as much as her hands [10:38] an early attempt at adaptation to life in space [10:38] * RayKremer still wonders just how much of the actual environmental light the glasses replace. [10:38] so that's more reason for her parents to have constructed her avatar as they did [10:39] I suppose if the system is augmenting the environment as well as the people, you wouldn't really notice a person getting blanked out [10:40] Of course if the tech is advanced enough really anything is feasable, this is supposed to be the future after all. I shouldn't worry so much. [10:41] that's wehre the "mediate reality" comes in [10:41] it edits as well as augments [10:41] If the images are good enough that you have to take the glasses to tell if someone's there or not, of course it can seemlessly replace a person with an interpolated rendering of the background [10:41] yep [10:43] say you are REALLY wearing grungy jeans and a tattered tee shirt [10:43] just seems kind of odd, I mean if the person's avatar is an overlay on them, the system doesn't really have to erase the person first before displaying the avatar [10:43] but you've tweaked your avatar with a set of stylish apparel [10:43] people see your club wear [10:44] if it can do that it can just bluescreen you out as well [10:44] that would only really happen if it's rendering the full environment also and then has to put the people in where they are [10:45] it's selective [10:46] think about makeup [10:46] for women [10:52] I guess I'm being to literal. AR is kind garbage in garbage out stupid tech right now. It reads tags that it's familiar with and everything else is background [10:53] If Dow's avatar is thought by the system to the elsewhere, the place where she's really at she would be considered background. [10:54] and therefore ignored, not digitally removed [10:54] * RayKremer also has to remind himself to not get wrapped up in the technobabble of what Fred does [10:55] her physical presence isn't suppose to be there so it's editedd out [10:57] Well her existance is kind of an exploit, she's doing something that's not a design intention of the system [10:59] I don't know, I mean if you can only see things that the system expects to be there, you'd be forever bumping into things that accidentally aren't where they are supposed to be. [10:59] Which I suppose is something that Fred is actually using as part of the story [11:00] yeap [11:00] also, though he's not brought it up as a plot point yet [11:00] but it seems like poor system design. Would have to be a glitch that was never intended and nobody's noticed [11:01] there'd be the possibility of having your avatar in an unreal virtual plane to do things [11:01] * Invisigoth is actually thinking along the lines of bleedover [11:02] I mean, if a bird lands on a tree, is the bird erased because it's not registered in the system? [11:03] no the system sees that [11:03] but Dow has an avatar registered someplace else [11:03] and the system knows hwere she should be so it corrects [11:05] I guess that's what I'm having trouble with. Computers are generally pretty stupid. If it thinks she is elsewhere it should be ignoring where she actually is, not "correcting" it. [11:05] say it biometrically tracks your condition as well, you get hit by a truck and your avatar goes into "911" mode [11:05] and then it's with her [11:05] But again, perhaps the system is doing something nobody thought it would do [11:05] the corrections woud perhaps be part of security [11:06] Actually, the system would have to be pretty smart [11:06] but not something that a hacker can trigger [11:06] a big, smart cloud [11:06] There would have to be a high degree of AI and independence to run it all [11:06] perhaps it has it's own reasons that aren't apparent for doin it to her [11:06] More than the sysadims and programmers could keep track of [11:07] one of those things that seems perfectly logical to the computer but makes no sense to the humans why it's doing it [11:07] * Invisigoth is going to grab some luch and be right back [11:07] exactly [11:08] heh, perhaps the cloud is using her avatar for its own purposes [11:08] A system that complex starts pulling bullshit that it wasn't designed for, I've seen that in plenty of stories [11:09] since she gets motion sick she'd never know the difference [11:09] a perfectly good avatar that can be made available [11:11] The sort of thing that if the sysadmins ever found out about Dow's situation, it would take them years to figure out why the system is doing that [11:12] * pirokoro has joined #mt-confidential [11:12] * ChanServ sets mode: +o pirokoro [11:12] hehe, and it could be that the system is doing no more than wandering around [11:13] it can't possibly be a normal expected outcome unless 100% of the image you see is generated by the AR system [11:13] you'll need to ive Fred that logs fof what he missed there [11:13] yeah I can drop it somewhere for him later [11:13] okay off to get my hotdogs :P [11:13] sure [11:13] yeah, my home machine wasnt logged in [11:13] so a log when you get a chance :) [11:14] (sigh) man, i dont know what to do here... i have things perking along, a number of things [11:14] some pretty decent progress on them, really [11:14] but i need to bring in more money right NOW, a month or two down the line [11:14] * pirokoro is worried [11:15] and yesterday, sarah and i talked about the fact that the way things are panning out with her cancer treatment [11:15] that she might not be able to do the conventions we've comitted to [11:15] so i might have to do some of these conventions myself, which is doable [11:15] ohh, yes that was a thing the last round of treatments too [11:16] but its the problem of not being able to leave sarah alone taking care of jack - she just wont be able to [11:16] Can Jack go to grandparents? [11:16] i think she can stay with her parents while im gone - that would probably work [11:16] btw, im seriously considering a kickstarter thing of some sort [11:17] for this Proximity thing [11:17] actually [11:17] the goal being a 30+ page doujunshi by the end of March [11:17] but ... man, getting the work done [11:17] i got some stuff done this morning [11:18] but now i have jack puling on my sleeve to play with him [11:18] A page a day, you'd either have to shut down everything else or come up with an art style that takes you 1/3 the time to draw [11:18] ugh... i wish we weren't in trouble. its so frustrating not being able to DO anything about it [11:18] the idea is to have something printed we can take to Acen [11:18] thats the main goal [11:19] that would be good to have [11:19] otherwise... i dont know what i have that will earn [11:19] MT itself isn't paying even its own hosting [11:19] and the store is just so slow... [11:19] thing is, i am not a shirt desiner [11:19] people like my comics, my stories, my art [11:19] but i give THAT away for free [11:19] and the trickle down to the sales in the store [11:20] has become too little [11:20] and its been that way for a while [11:20] the calendar - that jumped [11:20] and i coulda sold more [11:21] can you see why ive been focusing on the Proximity thing? it might be the best hope i have right now [11:21] yeah [11:21] MT just isnt cutting it. and when i DO get sales, that takes MORE time [11:21] because i have to make everything [11:23] i put a lot of effort into trying to clean up this weekend - things got out of hand [11:23] sarah... isnt getting much of anything done right now. she's been hurting pretty bad, and she just cant see [11:23] the tumor (i guess thats what it really is) [11:23] is larger than it was when this all started [11:23] its not life threatening, but it causes pain and pressure on the eye [11:25] back [11:27] it feels like things are going in the right DIRECTIONS, and i'm working forward on stuff... [11:27] * Invisigoth nods [11:27] hard to 'catch up' so to speak [11:28] all of this has completely chewed away our safety zone [12:17] * pirokoro has quit IRC (Quit: pirokoro) [12:43] and you haven't really had a buffer of work to cushion you since you worked at hobbs-black.. which is to say.. never. [12:46] not for lack of trying, but life happens to you a lot. [13:26] * pirokoro has joined #mt-confidential [13:26] * ChanServ sets mode: +o pirokoro [15:00] I am on a character, SOE is videoing an anniversary video [15:17] well they are doing more and more [16:58] * Invisigoth has quit IRC [17:27] * chemiclord has joined #mt-confidential [17:27] * ChanServ sets mode: +o chemiclord [17:58] * Invisigoth has joined #mt-confidential [17:59] * Invisigoth has quit IRC (Changing host) [17:59] * Invisigoth has joined #mt-confidential [17:59] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Invisigoth [17:59] * Invisigoth waves [18:30] http://www.megatokyo.com/scr33n/scr33n_2012-03-05_54520.png [18:31] nice Session Close: Mon Mar 05 18:31:31 2012